In today's American society, debt has become so common that the savings rate is nearing 0%, and runs a substantial chance of becoming negative. Financing has become so easy to get that anyone can get it -- creditors will extend financing, particularly for collateralized loans but also for unsecured loans like credit cards, to anyone with a pulse. Of course, they do so at "subprime" rates (i.e. extremely high interest and unfavorable terms), but they still do it.
The deluge of easy credit, brought on mainly by low interest rates, has resulted in a lot of people spending more money than they reasonably can afford to. Now, fundamentally this is a problem of personal responsibility -- if you can only get credit at 29.99% interest, you shouldn't be using credit -- but what's done is done, and the money people have already spent can't be un-spent. So now you get people who owe $2,000 on a card, pay $3,000 on it over the course of a year, and end the year owing $4,000 despite not making any new purchases. How? Penalties and fees, of course. Once people have their credit card accounts go over the limit, they get hit with an over-limit fee every month; if they can't afford to pay the minimum balance, they get a late-fee every month, too... and those fees are not included in the minimum payments, so the principal actually increases over the course of the year. They're literally in over their heads -- they've incurred so much debt at such lousy terms that they can't possibly pay it all, as the debt service requirements exceed their income.
So my question is, in a libertarian society, what do you do about this problem? And while the market will solve many things, this is still a societal issue, because you have to do something with them -- inaction is, in this case, an action.
Well, there are a few basic ways this problem has been addressed historically:
* Repossession: When someone can't make payments for a debt they've contracted to, the creditor comes over to their house and takes stuff equal to the value of the debt. Pros: creditor gets repaid, debt goes away. Cons: what if the person's debt exceeds the value of their property? Then the creditor can't possibly take enough to repay the debt, so the debtor loses their property and still has an untenable debt. And repossessions of some assets (e.g. a car) may make it more difficult for the debtor to work and thus repay the debt. This may solve the problem for small debts, but not for large ones -- and the large ones are the problem in the first place.
* Debtor's Prison: When someone cannot make payments according to the terms of the contract, you throw them in jail. Pros: powerful deterrent to taking on debt you can't pay. Cons: creditor is screwed; they loaned money out, and they don't get any back. And since the person's in jail, it's not like they're going to make any money to repay the debt. So who does it benefit? Both the creditor and debtor are unhappy.
* Indentured Servitude: When someone cannot make payments according to the terms of the contract, they have to work for the creditor until the debt is repaid, or for a term specified in the contract. Pros: Powerful deterrent to taking on debt you can't pay. Creditor at least gets some value for the bad debt. Cons: Creates a legal underclass, with all the sociopolitical and moral dangers that entails. Slavery is unseemly in a civilized society. May decrease total value, if the work done for the creditor pays less than the debtor's free occupation.
* Bankruptcy: When someone cannot make payments according to the terms of the contract, they go to a judge and declare bankruptcy. The judge liquidates most of their assets and repays creditors in order of debt seniority. Then all the debt is declared void, and the person starts over. Pros: Some creditors get something, debtor gets a fresh start in life without being completely destitute. Cons: Some creditors still get screwed -- filing bankruptcy is theft, plain and simple. In addition, the lack of penalty for the debtor encourages people to take out more credit than they can support. The easier it is to declare bankruptcy, the worse this unintended consequence is. To cover bankruptcy risk, creditors raise rates for everyone else. Potential for abuse -- since some assets are shielded, some people find ways to declare bankruptcy while remaining rich.
Well, given the choices above, bankruptcy (theft and all) looks downright peachy by comparison. Also, things to consider when addressing this issue:
* Involuntary debt: Debt for medical bills or for negligence fall into this category. You didn't choose to have a heart attack, but you'd rather go into debt than die, and now you owe the hospital five years' salary. Alternately, you didn't mean to set the barn on fire, and have no contract with the owner, but now you owe him five years' salary. There are no contract terms in these cases, so there must be a legal standard -- "freedom of contract" provides no guide in cases of involuntary debt, so even if you go with that option for voluntary debt, you have to do something with these cases.
* Usurious terms: Subprime credit cards are scary; after missing payments you genuinely can pay the entire balance every year and owe more each year. I would presume a libertarian society would not outlaw such terms -- they are, after all, a mutually agreed contract -- but people often stupidly sign up for them when they shouldn't, and this creates an issue where people can repay the debt, but not the "service fees" thrown on it constantly. Does freedom of contract extend this far, or does it violate conscionability requirements?
So, what would a libertarian nation do when faced with a debtors' society like ours?
March 8 2005, 22:27:22 UTC 7 years ago
Their are debt-relief agencies. You take out a loan with the agency, which fully repays all of your existing oustanding debts, and you then repay the agency in installments with reasonable interest.
People should just stop getting so much on credit. Let them suffer if they can't just get that through their damn thick skulls.
March 8 2005, 22:33:11 UTC 7 years ago
But "let them suffer" is not an adequate explanation -- I mean, all of the proposed remedies (repossession, debtor's prison, indentured servitude, bankruptcy) are variations on that, really.
And debt-relief agencies will only help you if you have an amount of debt that can reasonably be repaid. If you're at the filing-bankruptcy phase, it's too late for the credit counseling service; they'll counsel you to file bankruptcy.
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March 8 2005, 22:33:52 UTC 7 years ago
As for what to do when a person fails to pay a debt back, I say leave it open to negotiation. If a lender wants to make their loan contingent on it being secured by a piece of property, as is the case with mortgages, so be it. If a lender wants to make their loan contingent on it being secured by indentured servitude, so be it. If the lendee doesn't like the terms, they can find someone else. We should then look to see how most loan contracts look and make those terms be the default terms for contracts that don't spell out the result of default.
Usurious rates are fine, so long as the lendee knows what they are getting them self into.
Involuntary debt is different (I'm talking about debt you incur by accident or without your knowledge, not debt you incur instead of dying). There is no chance to contract so the government has to pick some way to deal with it. I'm kind of like the idea of auctioning off certain luxury property and then garnishing future wages.
As for bankruptcy, I'm not 100% against it, but I think that it should come at the expense of the lenders. The government should be allowed to buy the debt the way they buy property under eminent domain. When they do this, they should have to pay fair market value for the debt. If someone is given a bankruptcy though, it should pretty much relegate them to a subsistence level of existence until they pay back the government.
March 8 2005, 22:47:40 UTC 7 years ago
but...
The uneducated public often does not know what they are getting into when they agree to these "usurious" rates. I know quite a few people who just don't really understand the concept of interest. I know its a simple one, but I'm willing to bet a HUGE amount of people who are in debt fail to grasp what they are getting into if they don't pay or don't pay on time.AS in the original example, the people who owe the 4,000 now from 2,000 worth of purchases are somewhat clueless as to how it happened.
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March 8 2005, 23:14:13 UTC 7 years ago
as for answers, i have none. heh.
-j
March 8 2005, 23:25:26 UTC 7 years ago
then again I also don't really care much about society as a whole, so that's why I don't see it as being a real problem.
March 8 2005, 23:29:17 UTC 7 years ago
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March 8 2005, 23:28:34 UTC 7 years ago
I mean, 10+ years ago my parents declared bankruptcy, but they did it because of "involuntary debt" and, instead of being constantly late with minimum payments, my mom just decided it would be best to declare bankruptcy. (And my mom's a libertarian!)
They had no intent to steal what had to be charged, but shit happens ... and sometimes it's the responsible thing to do and own up to. Now my parents are home owners, have great credit, and everything's peachy.
Or are you just talking about people who abuse bankruptcy as an out to paying creditors?
As for the credit problems as a whole: Maybe it's just a big financial wave we're all riding. Maybe we'll go into the negative savings and then pull back up into positive. :shrug:
March 8 2005, 23:40:17 UTC 7 years ago
It also is of more harm than you realize as it drives up interest rates to compensate creditors for those who defaulted (and will default in the future) with govt protection.
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March 8 2005, 23:29:09 UTC 7 years ago
flippant answer to a good question
Sometimes creditors deserve to get screwed. If they look at someone's assests, other credit and history and decide this person is a worthwhile risk, then they CHOOSE to take that risk.People can also get wages involuntarily garnished.
I like pretty much ALL the options, so long as you know what you're getting into when you get credit. Something like indentured servitude would make you think twice about spending money you don't have.
March 8 2005, 23:36:26 UTC 7 years ago
Why is is that every solution to every problem is thought to best be solved by the government? When did govt get the right to get involved? Any involvement is argued for with some variation of "but we need it", usually going so far to say "but we really really need it!" The answer to that plea/demand is to make your problem, my problem, and that is not even a little bit acceptable.
March 8 2005, 23:44:26 UTC 7 years ago
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March 8 2005, 23:50:32 UTC 7 years ago
One thing I would like to point out is that a libertarian nation would not be a debtors society as part of the problem we face today with the high level of bankruptcies is the fact that getting seriously into debt in America has very few negative effects since people can claim bankruptcy and walk away from past obligations.
March 9 2005, 00:00:47 UTC 7 years ago
But at the same time, the ability of people to declare bankruptcy acts as a check on creditors and encourages them to keep rates reasonable; better to make some profit than none at all after the guy you've been hitting with usurious rates gets his debt canceled by the courts.
March 9 2005, 00:06:43 UTC 7 years ago
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March 9 2005, 01:06:48 UTC 7 years ago
On your second point, I suggest we agree to disagree. Neither of us is making any progress here.
March 9 2005, 01:51:35 UTC 7 years ago
I think this was in response to me
The govt's role is not debatable.At the very least, a good deal of people disagree with your view of the role of government. I also fail to see any reason why the government must only act as referee. It certainly would violate the libertarian concept of right and the role of government, but so what?
No one, govt included, has the right to violate my individual rights. To claim that there is anyone or anything that can, is to say that man is not free.
Then man is not free, as least as you define it. Rights not guaranteed by the government are meaningless.
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March 9 2005, 01:29:48 UTC 7 years ago
Debt is bad, and I try to avoid it as much as possible. The onyl debt I think that is acceptable is a mortgage. All others are not needed. Proper education is probably another point. I was always taught that debt was bad. My parents never had debt except a mortgage. If they wanted a new car, they'd save for it FIRST. Thats how I do it. IF you can't save for that car, then you can't afford it. period.
March 9 2005, 03:38:02 UTC 7 years ago
That is the way it was 10 years ago.
March 9 2005, 01:45:47 UTC 7 years ago
March 9 2005, 01:51:32 UTC 7 years ago
First, the reason that creditors have become liberal with their granting of loans is that they can do this and make money. Any company that has a financing option available would not continue in the practice for very long if they were not able to make money doing it. When people begin filing bankruptcy or being sued by creditors to the extent that the creditors are losing money based on their lending policies they will stop doing it.
Second, when consumers begin living beyond their means they find themselves in a very stressful situation. Living paycheck to paycheck to cover all of your living expenses plus all of your monthly payments for debt is not a fun way to live. To alleviate this, people will begin to seek alternatives. This can be seen in the popularity of financial advisors like Dave Ramsey
www.daveramsey.com that advocate debt-free living. My wife and I have been doing a program like his, and have paid off quite a bit of debt. In fact, we've paid off both of our cars, and are $2500 away from being debt-free. By taking control of our income through budgeting and discipline we are on a road that will lead to more wealth than most working-class Americans think is possible.
March 9 2005, 03:23:51 UTC 7 years ago
I don't know that relegating currency and interest completely to the market would eliminate bankruptcy (we can't always rule out fraud and honest error), but we'd go a long way towards it: ceteribus paribus, the bankruptcy-prone would not have gotten their loans in the first place because interest rates would likely have been higher.
Sorry if this is disjointed, I'm running on low sleep. I just wanted to toss in my two cents. :)
March 9 2005, 08:07:28 UTC 7 years ago
D'oh!
March 9 2005, 05:24:57 UTC 7 years ago
You are mistaking cause and effect.
People just don't "get" into trouble. We have a system which rewards both debtors AND lenders for "getting in over their heads. If we had a gold system, possibly with an end to fractional reserve banking, fiat money, or even free banking, our society would be much much more frugal. It was before all this Keynesian economic perpetual motion and pie-in-the-sky ideas took hold of people with political power.March 9 2005, 17:03:16 UTC 7 years ago
Re: You are mistaking cause and effect.
I agree. Let's fix the money system first. I bet the "debt problem" will quickly resolve itself. No more "easy credit" in the first place. Banks would have to actually know you before giving out something so valuable.March 9 2005, 14:58:05 UTC 7 years ago
The second problem is the creditors who extend credit to people like this. In the immortal words of Dubya "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice... {insert blank stare for about a minute} Won't get fooled again." Or perhaps more succinctly, "Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on ME."
Consequence and responsibility should be encouraged for both creditors and debtors. Debtors just ride out a storm and walk away from their debt IMHO, and creditors just hike the fees and interest on those who are responsible. Under a system encouraging consequence and responsibility, the creditors who do business like this would go out of business, while the debtors who declare bankruptcy are pretty much leveled for 10 years (length of time that bankruptcy stays on a credit report).
That being said, I think debt associated with medical emergencies and non-planned MAJOR expenses should be dealt with a little more reasonably. After all, I can't plan for a heart attack to strike next Tuesday or that on Wednesday I will be driving home from the hospital and be rear-ended and have the car totaled in the process. Unfortunately, every solution for a problem like that invites fraud. "I didn't plan to buy the 4th car and the 2nd house, but the deal was too good to pass up." or "my car developed a rattle, so I bought a new one instead of getting the old one fixed."
Awwww forget it. I'll just pay my debts on time and only buy what I need. No wait... I do that already.
And I apologize for the novel-length of reply.
March 9 2005, 21:17:30 UTC 7 years ago
March 9 2005, 17:51:51 UTC 7 years ago
Yes, in some sense it's still stealing, in that there's a contract stating I'll pay 50% interest on my debt monthly, to the nice man who lent me all that money, but if I'm paying back the principle, at least I'm stealing less.
-Ogre
March 10 2005, 06:31:59 UTC 7 years ago